All responses

3. Fascista: Italian, from fascio (1921): a member of an Italian political organization under Mussolini governing Italy 1922-1943, according to the principles of Fascism.

Satanism is traditionally and fundamentally individualistic and pro-loner. Satanists hate and oppose any kind kind of regimentation, including economic and social regimentation, because they restrict personal freedom.

For centuries the physical danger of forcible suppression has threatened Satanists and any member of any minority religion within any nation. These enemies are still around and are very powerful - if anything, they are stronger than ever (Christian Coalition, hello?). Letting these enemies represent and poison Satanism with their ways and ideas will lead to the destruction of Satanism.

In every story written about Satan, in every single myth, Satan was at war with the Powers On High That Be, and Satan (or Lucifer) was cast down by the dictatorial Jehova, Allah, or God, usually with the help of a hierarchy of angels. Satan is universally seen as a rebel, a critic, an adversary: the Accuser that challenges the social and religious Establishment. People who call themselves "Satanists" who support dictators or the establishment hierarchies, rules, bully-like indimidations, chains of authority, and other regimented impositions on personal freedom are not Satanists. What they are is people who are committing a form of suicide: the negation of Selfhood.

These comments are based just on the obvious, superficial contradiction between Satanism and Fascism. Many scholars have delved deeper into the psychological and emotional aspect of the renunciation of individuality and the escape from freedom. Such individuals – those attracted to fascism - find freedom tormenting. My favorite old word for such people is "klippoth."

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

3. From Norma Gomez: "Morganne"

Satanic Value in Fascism?

The issue has arisen among Satanists of the possible role fascism might play in the satanic philosophy of the Church of Satan. Fascist emblems employed by certain individual Satanists have moved some to consider and others to criticize the validity behind associating the two ideologies with one another. Yet it is first necessary to define terms before attempting to wrestle with the matter any further. Those terms, of course, are Satanism and Fascism.

For the Satanist, there is no need to define the first term since anyone who has read the works of Anton LaVey and agrees with its principles will for the most part stand on common ground with his diabolical compatriots.

As to the meaning of the second term, however, Satanists might perceive its ideology in different ways. The first step I believe will be to establish what fascism is and secondly, to determine if there is any chemistry between it and the philosophy of Anton LaVey.

The word Fasces gives us our present day word Fascism. A Fasces was the ancient Roman symbol of official authority and power. It was represented by an axehead enveloped by a bundle of elm or birch rods, bound together by a red strap.

Here is the key: Official authority, not individual autonomy. The definition of fascism's political ideology that I am most familiar with describes it as one of supremacy of the state over the individual, the latter only finding purpose and self-fulfillment through absolute obedience to the present ruling power, usually a dictator. Sexual activity for one's own pleasure is not encouraged , but only as it serves the purposes of the state. Every system of thought which has sought to control the minds of the people such as Christianity, Communism, Islam, etc., has employed like restrictions on humanity's greatest pleasure. This allows those in power to exploit pent up sexual energies for their own machinations by channeling those energies into state approved functions. Military values are highly lauded, but not for personal glory as one would find, say, among the American Indians, but rather a bloodlust for victory for one's own nation and race at the expense if necessary of one's own life. Cosmopolitan ideals, self-aggrandizement and rationalism are discouraged as decadent and valueless.

Even the most superficial overview of the philosophy of the Church of Satan and that of fascism must inevitably arrive at the logical conclusion that the two ideologies in their essential essence are completely incompatible. LaVey spoke of a joyous life lived through self realization through one's own efforts and freedom achieved through the questioning of those values idolized by both church and state. Fascism only allows joy and self realization in service to the nation state.

Should America ever become a totalitarian state, and it shows much promise in this direction through recent ominous developments in the War on Drugs, and this countries continual efforts at censorship of the arts and encouragement of ultra patriotism, it would certainly display less, not more tolerance towards Satanism than the present semi-democracy does today. The best case scenario would find Satanist's driven underground for fear of unbearable legal and social reprisals as they would no longer have the first constitutional amendment to offer any protection as we ... barely....have today. The worst case scenario would reveal every openly displayed Baphomet behind barbed wire.

The next logical question then would be, what attraction does fascism or national socialism as it was called in Hitler's Germany, hold for certain Satanist's? Whereas totalitarian political philosophies have as much in common with Satanism as do Christianity, Humanism, Communism, and any other self debasing school of thought, there may be ironically enough, certain Satanic applications of Fascist symbolism and peripheral accoutrements which might have a certain validity for some. For instance, LaVey spoke of certain objects as having a "Satanic look" about them, a car might look satanic, or perhaps a house. Many people have commented favorably on the sharp appearance of Germany's second World War uniforms. They were, of all the uniforms of all the nations of the World, perhaps the most Satanic in appearance. Fascism is often accompanied by racial supremacist views. In American culture, where the white male is sometimes openly vilified as the oppressor, employing the imagery of white pride through a swastika may serve as a counter-balance to the hysterical anti-racist rhetoric of the political left-wing. Another possible undercurrent of shock value may be attractive to some. Many Satanist's thrive on shocking our prim and proper polite society and certainly this can be accomplished through the emblems of Nazism. There is also the possibility that some Satanist's extract from Fascism the concept of strong central authority and discard the rest. One envisions here the policies of Niccolo Machiavelli as a Satanic political guideline.

To reiterate, there might be certain ways I have just mentioned in which the frills of totalitarian government may be used in a somewhat Satanic fashion, yet this is a far cry from wedding that ideology to that of Anton LaVey's. Concerning philosophies compatible with those of the Church of Satan I would rather look to the existentialist such as Nietzsche & Camus, as examples of de-facto satanic philosopher's. In summation, my position is that the images of Fascism offer an immediate and superficially sinister first impression but have really little to do with Satanic values.

Personally, I would distance myself from all the extreme right wing symbolism as it will only confuse others and give people the wrong idea concerning what Satanist's are about or where we are coming from. If I tried hard enough and let my sense of discrimination slumber, I could probably find something Satanic to extract from even Christianity itself, but that would be frivolous and would associate me with something that I am ultimately opposed to, and so what would be the value in that?

Norma J. Gomez

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

4. From Casey Ley "OneDarkness" replying to emails Stewart sent her.

Stewart said: -"First, as we start the analysis of the ideal of Fascism within the satanic movement...."-

These two words together "Fascism, Satanism" are an oxymoron. The two are at opposite ends of a spectrum, not as any yin/yang, but opposite in the sense that they completely cancel each other out.

Some background: Satanism has at its heart the perfect ideal of Darkness. The Yin that became. As it became, it stretched forth. In its stretching, it created. What it created was a Light born of Darkness, a Bright Darkness, or "The Black Flame." The Darkness possesses itself and is whole. The Light is made manifest FROM Darkness and is only whole while it PARTAKES of Darkness. The two together are the Yin/Yang of existence. The two together are the "Creation" we know. The two together, like everything whole, share in and make manifest the "Will" of "Creation." That is, UNITED with Darkness, the Light (Black Flame, in this context) is a creative Force. Can there be Yin alone? Yes. Darkness was before, is now and will be after. Darkness is ALWAYS capable of "Becoming" something different. It is the Ultimate source of ALL that is. It can be said that Darkness IS all that is, for with out it, there is NOTHING. Yang, on the other hand, ONLY exists as a PART of a whole. Without its progenitor (Darkness) it has no place in "Creation." Lacking a root in Darkness, the Light becomes a LIE. It is cold, brittle, barren and dead. Is it still Light? Yes, but now it is a FALSE Light, and is CONSUMMED by the awareness that it is OTHER THAN Darkness. Unlike Light united with Darkness, which can be said to prize diversity above all else and Wills toward Diversity (which is the will of Creation), this False Light seeks, and Wills toward, the destruction of Diversity and the psuedo-creation of sameness. In doing so, it is said to be at war with What Is.

Fascism (the INNER REALITY, not the political ideal), having its genesis in the Light ALONE, is diametrically opposed to the ideals of Satanism. Hence, the fascist ideal has NO PLACE within the Satanic Ideal.

Stewart said: . "Of course the assertion made by Magistrate Nadramia in her applaudable speculation of the similarities between the both parties are noted and should be viewed for further historical, relevant data on the research at hand."

If Magistra Nadramia thinks the two are in ANY WAY similar, Magistra Nadramia is WRONG. See above. Magistra Nadramia also referred to the Dark Force as a "very fascist force." WHAT? What kind of nonsense is that? Magistra Nadramia is talking about politics (which she is not familiar with), economics (which she is not familiar with) and the Dark Force (which she also was not familiar enough with to argue and state what she meant to the Temple of Set not so long ago.) A "fascist force?" Even atoms don't fit that definition. Nor do space and time. The only thing that fits that definition is a tree full of monkeys. The Dark Force in Nature is not even any of the forces known in physics, nor can you use physics to formulate it (you need the 2^nd and 3^rd "Laws" of Entropy to do that – and that's not even physics). It is not fascist in any sense of the word: IT STANDS ALONE, SOLITARY, UNIQUE and, to date- NOT FULLY UNDERSTOOD! I cite for proof this article on this URL written by P. Marsh and J. Mengele

http://www.apodion.com/vad/dark/entropy_tech.shtml

Stewart mentioned: "In any case the Fascist, AKA Nazi....."

It has been said before. but I will say it again, the NAZI Party was, politically, a NATIONAL SOCIALIST movement, the German WORKER'S Party. Mussolini was the Fascist.

Stewart said: "The Fascists and Nazis politically believed in terminating a weaker race in the case of WWII this was the Jewish Race, who's thought to be a religion in some cases however scientists can now read by gene analysis that is and what is not Jewish."

Another history lesson: Germans hated Jews because the Jews got the best jobs (they were better qualified). Germans hated Jews because they had a great deal of wealth (they had better jobs, and they worked harder). Germans hated Jews because they were better educated (they were smarter). Germans hated Jews because Germans were stupid, poor and starving. Germans hated Jews because Germans saw the Jews as becoming too powerful and manipulating the course of the German Nation. The cream, in other words, was rising to the top. WHO was the weaker race? And let's not forget the Slavs, also considered sub-human by the Nazi Party. Then there were the homosexuals. Then there were the Gypsies, etc, etc. This is INTERNAL Fascism—"They're different from us....let's kill them."Stewart said: "The best diagnosis they know possible for the stratification that they seek could be found in an ideal level of the most omnipotent political statement; this was Fascism. This Was Nazism."

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but based on what I think you mean: Germany HAD stratification BEFORE the Nazis rose up. The Germans wound up on the bottom and they didn't like it. Stratification was NOT what they were looking for. They sought the elimination of stratification via the destruction of everything determined "detrimental" to the German State. (If you think this makes them superior, consider that if a marauding band of baboons were to assault a bunch of humans, they'd inflict a lot of damage. And if you put a gorilla in the ring with a human, the human will lose.)

Stewart said: "But, the ideal was founded upon certain magical meanings behind the ancient symbols involved. That, are looked upon as being "Evil" like the Sigil of Baphomet the Swastika was considered to be a very atrocious thing, the meanings though, are different, regardless of Herd Misconceptions."

The swastika is as old as writing. It was NOT perceived as evil until AFTER Hitler shit all over it.

Now that the background is out of the way, let's get down to it.

The COS, first of all, is a CHURCH, not a country; right away we know that we are not dealing with "political theory." All that leaves us with is the manifestation of an inner state in it's members. The irony of Stewart's question is that there are INDEED similarities between the COS Fascist faction's INNER Fascism and the Fascism perceived in the NSDAP. The Nazi party was a party OPENLY formed to bolster the self worth of a flagging, LOSING and WEAK people. The INNER Fascism at work in the COS is of the same brand, only its adherents want us to believe that they espouse this doctrine not out of weakness but, rather, out of a position of strength. The Germans of the early 20^th century were IN REALITY a beaten down, starving people. The fascist element of the COS is a group JUST as beaten down and JUST as starving; the only difference is that their agony is INTERNAL agony. They are not a nation forced to pay crippling reparations, as was Germany after WWI. They are not a Nation with no National economy to speak of, as was Germany. The fascist faction of the COS, and, indeed, MOST of the LOSERS who espouse Fascism as a way of life do so out of their own INNER feelings of barrenness and lack of worth. They seek to bolster their self worth by identifying with something they perceive as "powerful." Well, FOOLED AGAIN. Fascism is the reaction of the WEAK against domination by the STRONG and ABLE. Hardly a reaction worthy of the "Alien Elite." Or the "Aryan Elite," for that matter. It's a POWER TRIP, pure and simple. Not to mention the hard on they get from jack boots. Gimme a break.

I still don't understand how ANYONE could make the mistake of thinking that Satanism has ANYTHING in common with Fascism. Does it have anything in common with the COS? ABSOLUTELY. Whiny little nothings who get off on the "elite" bullshit are PRECISELY the kind of people this DRIVEL appeals to. It's like "bait for klippoths." Just advertise that you are an organization of the Elect of God (it doesn't matter which god) or the Alien Elite – it's the same thing.

For the one millionth time: DO NOT make the mistake of thinking that the COS in ANY WAY defines the term "Satanism." It DOES NOT. That would be like saying "Baptist" defines Christianity. I know some fine Christians. I know some fine members of the COS. It has been my experience, however, that BOTH are dominated by the whiny, shrieking worthless scum of the order. Interesting how they both turn to fascism, whether they are Baptists of COSsers, wouldn't you say?

As Ole said, "The cause of effect of a war against life is a war against life. That is, fascism is a war against life."

He hit the nail on the head. The Satanism of the COS is predicated on the works of ASL. ASL said that a Satanist was a person who could FEEL the Dark Force in Nature. Fascism has NOTHING of the Darkness within it. How then can it (in LaVeyan terms) be in ANY WAY Satanic?

Casey Ley

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

5. From Ole Wolf

Fascism, if anything, is counter-individualistic save perhaps to the one that rules. What are the odds that you'll be the one that rules? They're less than one in a million, so what kind of fool would ever support fascism? Consider this: if I'm employed, it means I'm working. Although I might not agree with socialist philosophy (at all), if I support socialists, I actually come out stronger because of trade unions, work regulations forced onto employers, etc. As an individual, I gain from being (or at least seeming to be) a socialist. If Satanism represents your gaining personal advantages at the expense of the herd, socialism is more Satanic in deed than fascism!

If anyone told me I'd be bestowed with some advantages just because a governmental system changed to fascism, I'd think that person was a fool. Besides, such a statement is very similar to the Christian persuasion that if you accept the supreme God, you will go to paradise. But you won't get there alive.

--Ole Wolf

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

6. Casey Ley again, citing other respondents:

TJ Said: Fascism is NOT EVEN of the light (Black FLAME). It's the light ALONE - NO darkness at all.

See, this has been my problem with this WHOLE discussion. This "faction" keeps getting looked at and talked about on a COMPLETELY outer level...i.e. their politics, their clothing, etc. While some of the things written during this discussion have been both interesting and well said, it's not and never has been, a political question. It, like EVERYTHING else, is an outward manifestation of an inner state of being. I don't care about what someone says their political beliefs are, any more than I care what someone says their "religion" is. All these things are window dressings for the ONLY thing that is real about Anything: BEING.

Fascism, as a WAY OF LIFE, not a theoretical principle, is DEVOID of Being. How ANYONE could ever mistake it for anything even remotely Satanic is so far beyond me as to inspire a headache.

Satanism IS Being.

Fascism is NON Being.

Satanism is that which IS

Fascism is that which STRIVES to BE, but NEVER IS.

Satanism is born from an ALL LIVING Darkness.

Fascism is the poisonous spawn of a brittle, dead FALSE LIGHT.

Satanism is the unfettered JOY of Being.

Fascism is the forever-chained DENIAL OF LIFE, and that is REPRESSION.

I DO NOT understand why/how ANYONE who CLAIMS to be satanic can be confused on this point.

As to COS Fascists: Doc said that a Satanist is anyone who FEELS the Dark Force in Nature. Does it not follow that anyone who DOES NOT is NOT a Satanist? NO ONE who does feel it is CAPABLE of LIVING as a fascist. Masquerading, sure, especially to save their neck if they live in a fascist society. But BEING a Fascist? IMPOSSIBLE.

Fascism is the same tired shit all over again: oh LOOK, more klippoths. More sun cult pieces of shit. More of the same "Light Alone" CRAP. Same song, four hundred and fifteenth verse. NOTHING that is lacking in Darkness is Satanic. Fascism has NOTHING of the Darkness in it. ERGO? It IS NOT Satanic. WHERE is the debate in that???? And WHY does it KEEP getting debated EVERY TIME these people show up in a new outfit?

TJ asked: I'm trying to figure out the "Freudian" connection - is there something about that word? Fasces = Feces they feel like shit so they wannabe Lords over others. They are anal compulsive as hell and totally into the "dictator" thing, which they use to create an overbearingly suffocating and repressive atmosphere. Hitler = Hit Her? Shitler? The fascist faction is ALSO into dominance and submission, sado-masochism not just overtly but also in a very "controlled" = repressed form. They are anal compulsive people.

No, I don't think it's the word. It's an IMAGE that appeals to pent up pieces of shit that never got off. And THAT IS Freudian.

Ole Wolf said previously to TJ's question: I don't think there's a "Freudian" thing about fascism in that it sounds like some anal retentive obsession. Fascism goes in lock-step with authoritarian, sexual repression, which may be the "Freudian" part of it. So, try this instead: The cause and result of fascism is fascism. In turn, fascism arises from sexual repression. The cause and result of sexual repression is sexual repression. In turn, sexual repression arises from the inability to live freely. The cause and result of the inability to live freely is the inability to live freely. In turn, the inability to live freely arises from a war against life. The cause of effect of a war against life is a war against life. That is, fascism is a war against life.

EXACTLY. Somebody explain to me how that can be confused with Satanism?????

In reality, what happened in Nazi Germany was stratification turned inside out, turned upside down on its head. Superior people, superior in ALL ways that had already risen to the top in what was pretty much a "free market" were beaten down by monkeys. They were considered DEMONIC! Consider that.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

7. From Jeff Gerber replying to what Julia said to Stewart,

Julia said: "From reading Mein Kampf, my impression was always that the Jews were not viewed as a weaker race, but as a scheming, evil race, just as strong as the Aryans in their own way, but skewed and maniacal, not possessing their own culture and bent on dominating others. This is quite different from a weaker race, no?"

Jeff Gerber formerly of the ADL comments to Julia's post

It has been the fortune of the Jewish People to be viewed as Sorcerers in League with Devils by the Christians around them. They were encircled by Christians in the West since the Diaspora. I get a chuckle out of knowing the history of Jews that invented "Books of King Solomon" to sell to grasping "goyim" that wanted to "learn magic." There is a sucker born everyday. Of course, suckers are stupid.

It was not through any fault of our own that we survived. On the contrary, we were smarter and more "cunning" one might say, which is only a form of intelligence maligned exclusively by the "Aryans" or Anglos, (W.A.S.P. types) as pointed out by Erskine in his essay "The Moral Obligation to be Intelligent," an indictment of "Anglo Saxon" stupidity alongside a superstitious "WASPish" fear of "Wisdom." Odd, I never thought of myself as "cunning" or "evil" for being able to call stocks on the money. I merely use my brain. With this, I enrich myself and my close friends. I do not enrich my enemies. In other words, "us first, fuck anybody else." That's very much like "me first." Is there something wrong with that? Who says so: a Christian?

Adolf Hitler's teenaged profile fits in well with many of the indolent, jobless teens who can't get girlfriends that we see today hooked on fantasy role playing games and going nowhere fast. Hitler's fantasy role playing consisted of Wagnerian fantasies. He was a flophouse bum, worse than "trailer park trash" and nothing more. He didn't even have a girlfriend, an abnormality in itself (he wasn't gay either).

In a society of Prussian (Bismarck) aristocrats, land owners and illiterate serfs, the Jews came into Germany with nothing except their own culture and intelligence. Far from having no culture, we have preserved our culture and kept it intact and, for the most part, kept the non-Jews out of it. In this early capitalist and half feudal dog-eat-dog society, the Jewish People rose to the top in every profession they entered. They did this solely on their own merit. That was real stratification. What the Nazis or Fascists did was turn stratification upside down on its head. Hitler even gave speeches against intellectuality. Yet the only "physical" strengths he ever advocated raising up were through normal physical activities. "The Eternal Jew" gives a clear picture of what they thought of the Jewish People. They praised the physical laborer who obviously couldn't think past his immediate wants or use foresight, and hated the merchant. They really loved their almost-cave-men. If Hitler were alive today, he would be the proponent of illegal alien sweat shop workers and migrant farm workers. Why? Because illiterate farm workers predominated in the German countryside and were "valued" and idealized by the Nazi idealists. It was the "brain work" of those clever enough to think of marketing products that the Nazis hated: this was clearly in the hands of the Jews of that time. Only through using brute baboon force were the Nazis able to "beat" the Jews. Inferior? Hardly. If marketing products can be said to be "maniacal and dominating" then let us look at it. What's maniacal about marketing products? Mass production brought us into the modern century and out of the backward feudal age. What is wrong with dominating the market if you can do this? Those who can: DO! Those who can't: COMPLAIN.

We don't have a culture? Oh yes we do. It's just not Christian culture, not at all; if anything it is anathema to the Christian culture. Evil and scheming? Let me laugh, Julia: do you mean we Jews are Satanic?

Jeff Gerber (My credentials are on Hr.Vad's website. My Satanic credentials come from my Ophite father: these are Jews that venerate the "Serpent of Wisdom." We are Deists, not Theists.)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

8. From Faust

In answer to the question of is fascism satanic, I would voice a resounding NO!

As everyone knows, "Satan is the first rebel." And it is this image of Satan as the adversary, the questioner, that we, as Satanists, try to emulate.

Those people who claim to be Satanic and preach fascism ALWAYS see themselves as members of the elite group at the top of the social food chain. They seek to dominate others to compensate, most likely, for their own failings in life. They constantly search outside the self for the answers to their woes. They force responsibility for their short comings on a group of people that they perceive to have wronged them. That makes these fascists un-satanic.

I have yet to hear one of these closet Christians say, "We need to set up a government that will force people to do things against their will, assume ownership of their property, and conscript the citizenry to serve in a fight & die for the perceived destiny of those in power. BUT, I don't want to be in that power group. Sign me up for extermination or forced labor camps. I want to be the unarmed soldier serving as cannon fodder in the war against my own people."

It has become a mechanism for survival of the current regime to portray Satanists in Nazi garb to equate these two ideals. They learned a lesson from the cold war that few people did: "When the outer enemy has been vanquished, the citizens seeks the enemy within." ( The current state of our national identity is proof of this.) As soon as the masses stop looking to us as an adversary, they will have nothing to do but focus on those who hold power within our government. Then they will have no choice but to see the real harm the Christian Coalition and other such groups are doing.

For example, gun control. Everyone agrees illegal guns are bad. But the fascist leaders in this country have used this to advocate the restriction of legal weapons.

Ben, Mr_Faust

When Caesar said of Cassius, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing." It was not to warn that education was dangerous, but that a lack of knowledge was.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

9. From Ole to second response from Stewart:

Stewart said: "Also it must be highly noted the appointed person in power who was a Fascist and had Sexist ideals set forth an out-right ban upon everything that was birth control related due to the indiscriminate fact that at that point in time it was something put out to the effect of: "Women must return under the subjection of man-father or husband-and must recognize therefore her own spiritual, cultural, and economic inferiority."----

And whether you like it or not, authoritarian rulership REQUIRES subjugation of the female sex who would otherwise tend towards peaceful existence. Sexual oppression—especially against females—is not propaganda against fascism; it is a prerequisite of fascism. Religion is a perfect tool for sexual subjugation and oppression.

The desire to control sexual activity is a fascist tendency; it is not a question of being a fascist and a sexual idealist "as well."

Compare with matriarchal societies, where fascistoid concepts are unheard of until patriarchal rulership is introduced... and with that, religion.

Stewart said: "The assertion made by the people that we are seeing now, protesting that Doktor LaVey had such ideals,----"

And they'd have been RIGHT IF Doctor had been promoting fascism. Whenever someone hails fascism to the skies, they're right that THEY have those ideals.

Stewart said: "....he had inspired women, at their own objection, to make their own choices, and gave them postulates that bewitch men in their tracks,----"

Didn't you read The Satanic Witch? It is all about techniques on using Cruxtoid men to obtain what you want as a woman.

Forcing a dress code onto women (which Doctor didn't—he plainly listed techniques for manipulating broken men, not stating a dress code) is equivalent to forcing women to cover their faces insofar as the natural body isn't accepted. In that sense, there is NO DIFFERENCE between forcing a "witchy" dress code onto females, forcing them to cover their faces, and cutting off their clitorises. That's not necessarily the same as telling them that men can me manipulated if they (the females, not the men) wear sexy shoes, which (hopefully) was what Doctor was doing.

Stewart said: "....not that they were of inferior quality but because they were superior in the sense that he admitted that they also had power over him.----"

True. And any female has power over any male, but not in the TSW sense. The TSW techniques draw on oppressed instincts while the kind of power I'm talking about is a raw desire to procreate.

Stewart said: "As far as I have heard or have seen it has not come to my attention that such things are existent.----"

Some of them are—Doctor wrote TSW. And as soon as someone argues that Doctor was promoting fascist ideals, the same person will also be arguing that Doctor was promoting (in an inner sense) sexual oppression and female subjugation.

Stewart said: "And if they are, they are founded upon misconceptions of their very own inferior pseudo-satanic quality,----"

Yes, and especially upon the misconceptions by those fascistoids that think they agree with Doctor, not those that try to attack the CoS with the "you're fascists" line. At least the latter ones KNOW they want to attack the CoS while the fascistoids provide them with an ample supply of ammo.

--Ole Wolf

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

10. From Phil Marsh to Unknown

Someone asked about this statement:

"Nature, in her ineffable wisdom, wastes nothing. Seemingly useless but parasitic or destructive persons should be used like clay pigeons: for target practice"-Anton LaVey

I'll answer that one. Key word is "seemingly." The fact is, Nature in Her ineffable Wisdom (that's right) has seen to it that a great majority of life on earth uses parasitism as an extremely viable strategy for survival - and such creatures have evolved methods of predation that make lions look like lambs in comparison.

This quote of LaVey's is not much different from some of the "Pat Buchannan and the Christian Coalition should WIN the election" rants posted by Tani Jantsang as a wake up call to the sleeping herd, a reminder of just where they are and who they are in relation to the society at large. I see that the herd stands unreminded, still sleeping. It is no surprise to me that an organization of freethinkers mocking organized religion's hypocrisy, would evolve into one where "DOC SAID" becomes Scripture. Jesus said parables. Some fools wrote them all down. They have become Scripture. You know the rest of that story. It seems to be what some humans do when they get organized, especially around a person who died.

There has never been a President elected to office in the USA that was not a Christian or from a Christian background even if only in name. But today Christians have a powerful coalition and candidates they want as president, senators, you name it; they aim to take over. We all know what Christians are and what they want to do. It surprises me that neither LaVey himself when saying this, nor people quoting it, see that everything that ever came forth from the COS or Doc is viewed as "destructive" to the Christian way of life, nor do they realize that Christians who rule this country would see Doc and the entire COS as parasites to be used as the clay pigeons.

LaVey was a human being. He lived through urban sprawl, inner city destruction, impossible rises in cost of living (where the ice cream cone is no longer five cents), and everything else that has caused the herd to "move to the extreme right" politically. It surprises me personally that Doc did not have the same clarity of sight he had when he was younger, the clarity to see through all of it and KNOW with Undefiled Wisdom: WHO BENEFITS - because surely, some few have benefited at the cost of everyone else, including Doc. It does not surprise me that a bunch of herd followers now in the COS are using his every word, even words lacking clarity, as Scripture. It does not surprise me, but it does sadden me.

Philip Marsh

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

11. From Chuck Shaddoway:

The very fact that so many pseudo-Satanists have adopted the Nazi thing just proves that they're not Satanists. They're HERD-types.

"Oh, I'm a Satanist, so I'll shave my head and only wear black, and I'll be nasty to everyone outside my little clique, and that'll make me His Satanic Majesty!" Get a clue!

A true Satanist can be slicker than catshit on linoleum. He can slide inside the herd like a ghost, work his wiles, and have the Herd begging him to slaughter them. He can pick a lady out of a crowd, ask her to dance, and before the music ends, she'll be offering to bear his children. And he (or SHE) is well-versed: in music, literature, finance, politics, humor, and a whole lot more. He's got the answer before the others have thought of the question. He doesn't suffer fools gladly, unless he's about to fleece a willing sheep. He gathers INTERESTING people about him, not a HERD of LOSERS. He has Class, Style, and Finesse. Good looks help, but they're not required...

A Satanist is equally at home on the dance floor or behind enemy lines.

Above all, he's his own person, a lackey of NO ONE...

--Chuck Shaddoway

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

12. From Kaiden Fox

Ole said: Forcing a dress code onto women (which Doctor didn't—he plainly listed techniques for manipulating broken men, not stating a dress code) is equivalent to forcing women to cover their faces insofar as the natural body isn't accepted. In that sense, there is NO DIFFERENCE between forcing a "witchy" dress code onto females, forcing them to cover their faces, and cutting off their clitorises. That's not necessarily the same as telling them that men can me manipulated if they (the females, not the men) wear sexy shoes, which (hopefully) was what Doctor was doing.

I've seen the Sexy Shoes portrayed as a Mandate. I can't remember which magazine it was in, but I'm pretty sure it was the Black Pun-Kin. Perhaps I'm taking things out of context, because I've only seen one issue. However, the exchange was that one reader wrote in asking if she HAD to dress in high-heals. The answer given was YES, but not on New York sidewalks because that would just kill your feet. I've also seen in print Anton LaVey on record as saying, "If fascism makes men look like men and women look like women, I'm all for it." I know of one person who dresses like a fascist on a regular basis, and I think it makes him look just silly. (In his defense, I will point out that he is the head of our Abuse department, which might explain why it looks like overkill - also, the guy looks just ounces over 100 pounds. When I dress like a fascist, I'm trying to employ the Law of Dominant Mass towards the Command to Look). I think what would make women look like women is returning to a Minoan style of dress.

Ole said: True. And any female has power over any male, but not in the TSW sense. The TSW techniques draw on oppressed instincts while the kind of power I'm talking about is a raw desire to procreate.

On the other hand, the Satanic Witch never has the Caveat that this is a handbook for manipulating Christians. Having said that, it's easy to see WHY one would NOT say that. Tani poured over my own "handbook" for manipulating Christian Women and, given what I know about her, she confirmed that my techniques would probably get just a funny look from someone like her. She even said that the "human mind" as I portrayed it is the mind of a schizophrenic. And my primary source, Richard Bandler, even said the same thing in the book "Frogs into Princes." (I think). Anton LaVey has never, to the best of my knowledge, come out and said outright that Satanists do not think like WASPS (White Anglo-Saxon Protestants).

Kaiden Fox

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

13. From Wookie

"Jederman ist sein eigener Führer!" (Everyone is his own leader!)

Here are a few brief observations and personal opinions which I feel should be taken under consideration on the Satanism - Nazism issue:

I think it was High Priestess Barton who once wrote that getting hysterical at the first sight of a swastika or similar nazi-oriented symbol is unsatanically narrow-minded. I agree: On a ritualistic level it should be "what ever gets you high" for a Satanist. I can, for instance, imagine that a ritual which would include nazi-oriented symbols in order to be enormously effective for a Satanist with a Jewish background: Either to produce feelings of hatred and revenge (this would be beneficial in a destruction ritual) or to produce feelings of submissiveness and being abused (this would benefit a Satanist who wishes to recognize these sort of counterproductive aspects in himself and get rid/make use of them). Furthermore, I feel that this applies to other personal walks of life as well: If one finds a symbol, be it Baphomet, Swastika, Coca Cola's trademark or whatever, meaningful for himself - so be it.

Satanism isn't and it shouldn't be a politically committed movement: A Satanist can find aspects which are analogous with his own, personal, thoughts from any political ideology there is: Communism, Republican, Conservatism.. This is up to what the individual feels best serves his/her goals as a person and as a Satanist. This said, I must stress the fact that, at least in my personal opinion, NONE of this in any way justify a Satanist committing himself to some Neo-nazi-movement or to endorsing fascistic ideology in his personal life. If he does, he isn't a Satanist - he's a nazi and these DO exclude each other: Be that if so desired, a Satanist can utilize aspects of whatever ideology he finds suiting for his satanic endeavors, there are nevertheless some aspects in nazism, as well as in many other political or non-political movements, which are contradictory to the ideology of Satanism and it's principles set forth by Doctor LaVey and the Church of Satan.

Even though I fully accept and endorse such terms as "Alien Elite" and "Social Darwinist" which have been used to describe Satanists and their ideology, I nevertheless strongly feel that this (satanic) type of stratification and elitism is based on MERITOCRACY - which is not the case when it comes to nazism. Nazi-mindset is based on "Aryan superiority" and other ideals which advocate discrimination of individuals of certain ethnic backgrounds regardless of the abilities and personal potential of these individuals. This thought is best elaborated in Magister Peter Gilmore's essay "Satanism: The Feared Religion" in which he concludes: "There are elite individuals from all ethnic backgrounds, and they are embraced by Satanism for the superior beings that they are - creating an uniquely Satanic ethnic."

I think this about says it all: Nazism is a movement for mediocre masses who have a need to feel superior, but who lack the ability to be it - it gives a person a false feeling of being "elite" just by happening to born with a certain skin-color. Satanism, on the other hand, embraces superior individuals who have proven their worth in the ordeal of Life.

Nazis advocate the re-raising of "third Reich" so they could once more start stuffing the "unworthy" to gas-chambers. Satanists declare that every person should have the right and obligation to stand or fall on his own merits and that both rewards (for ability) and punishments (for inability) should come as natural causes of their actions - which would be happening if it were not for the unnatural doctrines of "forgiveness and mercy" set forth by the so-called white light-religions - not in an "artificial way" of passing dictatorial judgements on dubious grounds. Any sensible person should be able to see the huge difference and contradiction between these two movements.

So to encapsulate my personal opinion: There is no need to over-react if some Satanists find nazi-inclined symbols or even some aspects of their ideology worth their time, but there indeed is a need for action from Satanists if the (visible) line between Satanism and Nazism is being, either intentionally or unintentionally, dimmed.

Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Führer?

Get real - Jederman ist sein eigener Führer!

Beast wishes,

Wooki

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

14. From Radu

Satanist Fascists? Fascist Satanists? Hierarchies? Dictators? An "ideal?"

I belong to no other Satanic organization against the COS. I come from Eastern Orthodox (Russian Orthodox) heritage three generations ago. I also come from a heritage two generations ago of Atheism and personal experience of revolution against tyranny and religion. Both. I am formerly a Most Vicious Devil in the "Evil Empire" and yes, we Demons actually dared to say "Fuck God" and put this blasphemous book, "The Satanic Bible," in our own museum of Atheism.

If I may be sarcastic and reduce the theory about Satanist Fascists to absurdity:

Satan loved hierarchies. There is God, the Big Boss, then there are Nine Choirs of Angels divided into Hierarchies. The First Hierarchy is: Seraphim, Cherubim and Thrones. Then there is the Second Hierarchy: Dominions, Principalities and Powers. And there is the Third Hierarchy: Virtues, Archangels and Angels. And all of these have Orders of Rank within them. Satan is a mere angel also known as Lucifer. Of course, when God had a son, Nepotism ruled the day and Jesus Christ was put up next to God above the Seraphim. As an Angel, Satan sings the praises of God: Zieg Heil, Gott Mit Uns!

That is why Satan bows down to the Lord of Light, Jesus Christ. Heil Jesus. It doesn't matter that, as Lucifer, Satan's Light shines the brightest; he has to humble himself and submit to the pallid, dim light of Jesus Christ. Heil Jesus.

Satan had a major fight with the Archangel Michael once, and Michael won and set Satan straight. Heil Michael.

Exploitative bosses that give you nothing but ask for everything are very Satanic and God is the Big Boss, and since the year 0 AD Jesus Christ has been Number 2. Satan loves his Boss; he and the other Orders of Angels helped to build the Throne and the Altar and actually did most of the work building the entire Universe. Satan did all of this without being paid. God also ordered all these Angels to bow down to the creation and sing praises to it after they did all that work making it. And they all did it: Zieg Heil, Gott Mit Uns.

God once sent Jesus Christ to be born into the world only to die for the bad behavior of people. It didn't do any good so, in the end, Satan got the job of being the best friend of all losers, asocial idiots, self-destructive morons and assholes in general; in other words, Satan is the Patron Saint of the Herd. It is also very Satanic to support everything that wants to exterminate you and to provoke everything that might exterminate you. Zieg Heil.

So remember to look up (not down) on the Hierarchy! Don't smash the Hierarchy in a violent revolution, just submit to the Hierarchy like a good little slave. Always say Zieg Heil, Gott Mit Uns. It's Satanic! You all better do that, or else YOU will be kicked out of Heaven!

Heil Satan!

Radu Dekanozov (Still rather rule in Hell by myself).

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

15. From Kari Nevala "Bingonoid"

I'll write about Sexuality, Indulgence and Nazism

During the Weimar Republic in Germany, before the Nazis got into power, the general climate was somewhat open-minded. Considering the time and location, the people were relatively well in tune with their animal instincts. Many carnal intellectual innovations took place. State repression of different forms of sexuality was rare, and there existed vital sexual sub-cultures. All this would change when the Nazis got into power.

One of the pre-Nazi innovations was the flourishing of sexology—the study of human sexuality. Sexology of the period was personified in one Dr. Magnus Hirschfeld (1868 - 1935), whose motto was "justice through knowledge" (in other words "sociopolitical change through the 'truly occult'"?). Dr. Hirschfeld founded the historical Institute for Sexual Research, first of it's kind, in 1919, and published many pioneering studies on human sexuality. Hirschfeld was very much like Kinsey decades later in USA, who used methods developed by Hirschfeld. Both were persons who displayed, for all to see, the undefiled wisdom of the carnal nature of human existence.

The Nazis saw the very same liberal innovative spirit of the Weimar Republic as the cause for the fall of the German people. The Nazis hated and despised Hirschfeld, his colleagues and their works. Not least because Hirschfeld was also a gay rights activist, and the Nazis saw homosexuality as one of the most sickening things plaguing the German people (despite the fact that a notorious homosexual, Ernst Roehm, got them into power with his Storm Troopers, most of whom were also gay). It's essential to realize that the Nazis didn't hate homosexuality because of eugenic reasons. The main reason, for the Nazis, was that homosexuality, in their eyes, represented the indulgent spirit, the spirit of enjoyment, which they saw as corruptive and the opposite to the Iron Will. Iron Will meant strength by the means of abstinence and compulsion. The Nazis hated the homosexuals, because they were "men with animal instincts." They considered the homosexuals to be seducers, and "rigorous discipline and will power" was thought to be necessary to be able to abstain from falling into indulgence with them. That is the main reason why the Nazis fought against homosexuality—not some eugenic issues. Indulgence was the arch enemy of the Nazis. They wanted to destroy that which they felt attraction to.

This can not be overemphasized to a person of our times who is into Nazi aesthetics. The Nazis were fighting against the carnal aspects of human life in an attempt to return back to "Victorian" Christian values; back to the times when even the legs of pianos had to be covered, so that nobody could even accidentally come to think about something sexual. The Nazis were the Taliban of their times. Men who hated joy. They had that mentality in their hearts, and they created what similar cultures have created through the times. For example the Nazis made laws in which even touching another man would be considered criminal—compare that to the most sickening forms of the Samurai culture, in which touching another person's weapon would be considered to be a crime demanding capital punishment. A culture built on compulsive behavioral norms, adoring abstinence. Hating the carnal nature and the undefiled wisdom.

When the Nazis got into power in 1933, their first target for destruction was the Institute for Sexual Research. It was "closed down" the 6^th of June 1933, and the priceless scientific collections and works were "confiscated" (burned at the Opera Square of Berlin). The terror of the 3^rd Reich had begun. Once again abstinence lead into burning books. And perhaps once again it was fuelled by self-hate, Thanatos: Ernst Roehm, a long time friend of Hitler and the head of the SA in 1933, was a homosexual.

Strength from joy!

Kari Nevala

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

16 TJ's reply to a heap of emails containing text shown elsewhere?. Contains commentary on possible Freudian connection all the way to music that seems to typify the fascist "satanic" faction spoken of in "Lucifer Rising." In case the other mentions are not in here, I just repeated them.

Someone said: Try this: people feel like shit about themselves (feces) so they turn to fasces. They are blinded and broken: Not See (Nazi). They are hyper patriarchal: Hitler = Hit Her? Perhaps even Shitler?

The ONLY people who have historically turned to such movements on their own were horribly self-hating and broken - like the blacks with Black Nationalism. LIKE the blacks with their pseudoscience about civilization, the Aryans seem to have the same desire for bullshit and so does the "Fascist faction" now in the Satanic realm. It is a Desire in the Heart for A LIE!

All other fascism arose from CIA setting up military dictatorships in 3^rd world countries. That's not even debatable now: the CIA admits it on documentaries.

Going back to Ole's REPRESSION note and Metadromos' essay on oppressed and broken nations: First of all, why did the CIA bring fascism to these nations? Why didn't they bring socialism there? Or democracy? Did the CIA bring fascism because they wanted these nations to be free? HA! Hell no. They created a Dante's Christian Hell in these places. Shades of ugly gray, beaten and broken skeletal people. What were the 3 favorite Fascist call words? God, Country, Family. Note that the 3 words were NOT: Liberty, Equality, Freedom.

Look carefully at the images of this fascism. They are very austere and ascetic. Very MONKISH. WHO does this appeal to? And this faction is notably MALE and WHITE. WHY is that? Why? (We know why). They say themselves that the few females into it are masochistic (waste products). In other words, they are hysterics. See MALE DISEASE - the Female Disease portion. Hr.Vad's website.

Let us look at the name of the music that (in general) appeals to this faction: DEATH metal, THRASH (as like ophionic people do) metal? They even call it BLACK metal but do they mean Black as in "Black folks?" They mean black as their own archetype as "black is evil." They mean black as in BLACK HOLE - which is what they have in their own hearts. NOTHINGNESS: and it is THIS they are THRASHING against: their own inner DEATH. They DON'T mean the soft yin of quiet darkness at all. MOONLIGHT SONATA is dark - one of the darkest pieces ever written. It is quiet. It is BEAUTIFUL. They don't mean that at all. Look at the gray tones and UGLINESS of all of what appeals to them, look even how they make themselves look: like zombies, like the DEAD.

It may be cathartic for THEM to become screaming frothing "HEAD bangers" (bang their heads? numb out their brains?) and they need that catharsis because? Because? Flowing people don't need catharsis because they are NOT PENT UP, they are normally Cathartic people. NORMALLY: All the time. They might get mad - but they explode instantly and it's GONE, they have inner liberation ALL THE TIME. And that is INNER PEACE.

What stops these others' catharsis at every moment is their chain-bound hearts. So occasionally they need to WAIL at themselves - and this they THINK is a catharsis? No, it's not! For them it is - it's the best they can do. What the HELL does it look like and sound like to those of us who DO NOT NEED that catharsis? I wrote much about it: it's a noisy whine and scream from the hearts of the DAMNED, the hearts in CHAINS tearing at their own chains. Yet WHAT CHAINS are on these people? I see no chains. They are NOT living in Zimbabwe! They are free, in the free world; they are even mostly suburban well-off people compared to others in the world. What is this they SCREAM out against - that noisy raucous internal scream? They are screaming and wailing at THEIR OWN BEINGS! YES! They are NOT wailing at the world or they'd join a labor union or get involved in some REAL struggle. I see the physical body images they idolize (Nazi ones, and by the way, also Soviet ones!) and yet none of them are built like that. Most of us anti-fascists ARE! They are probably wailing against the shitty treatment they got during their formative and teenaged years.